Keri Russell as Kate Wyler in episode 101 of "The Diplomat". Courtesy of Netflix.

Continuing the ongoing series of interviews with creative artists working on various aspects of movie and episodic productions, it is my pleasure to welcome Julie Schubert. Julie is an Emmy Award winner for her work on “House of Cards”, and later she worked on “Mindhunter”, “Jessica Jones”, “Daredevil”, “Manifest”, and many other productions. In this interview, Julie takes a deep dive into her work on “The Diplomat” for which she just received an Emmy nomination for outstanding casting for a drama series.

Kirill: Please tell us about yourself and the path that took you to where you are today.

Julie: My name is Julie Schubert, and I’m a casting director. I’m based out of New York, but when I work, I work internationally, which is quite exciting. You get to experience a lot of different places and a lot of different people.

I wanted to be an actor ever since I was a kid, and then I went to college and I realized that I was quite bad at it [laughs]. I didn’t know what to do, but I knew that I still wanted to be in the industry in some capacity. My family is in the restaurant business, and as great as that is, that is not a place I wanted to end up. So I got a bunch of internships while I was in college, and one of them happened to be in casting – and that was the best thing for me. You get to work with actors all the time, which I love. You get to work on a lot of different projects in a lot of different worlds, which I love. And you never have to be seen, which I also love.

No one really knew what casting was at that point when I was entering the industry. It didn’t exist in any kind of conversation about what you could do, and you had to almost “happen” upon it. Now it’s a much more prevalent craft, which is fantastic. This year was the first time that casting directors were honored with Oscars for their work, which should have been done a long time ago. BAFTAs are eligible for it, Emmys are eligible for it, and you have these venues where our work is recognized for the craft that it is. There’s also a documentary called “Casting By” that I would highly recommend watching. It gives a great look at the history of it, of what casting is, the subjectivity and the art of casting. Everyone should know what that is.

Kirill: What are the most common misconceptions or misunderstandings about what casting is or isn’t?

Julie: It depends on who you are. There’s a lot of misconception among actors that casting is a gatekeeping profession – that you have to get through us to get jobs. The way I reframe it is that we actually are the best advocates for actors that there possibly could be. We are the ones that are watching what you do on stage and on film. We are having those conversations with our creatives about why you are the perfect person for the roles that we’re currently working on. That’s the biggest one which for me is about reframing that we are your advocates, we are your allies, we are partners in this, and we are not the enemy.

Rufus Sewell as Hal Wyler in episode 302 of “The Diplomat”. Courtesy of Netflix.

Kirill: How big of an event was it to see the new category for best achievement in casting to be added to this year’s Oscars?

Julie: It was great to see it joining the other beautiful stages like the BAFTAs and the Emmys. Recognizing the art behind it is hard because it is so subjective – but so is directing, editing or costume design. A lot of those folks who have been recognized for their work wouldn’t be recognized without the cast that they put in front of them that they get to work with.

A lot of what we do is work with those collaborators to help shape what’s on screen, telling the stories that they want to shape, because we know those actors best. We know what they’re capable of, and the kinds of stories that they can tell, and finding a way to make it cohesive and make sense. How many times do you watch something, and you say that was such a great story, but that one actor didn’t feel like they fit into it. Part of casting is to find that seamlessness where you fall into the world and you walk away from it fully believing in it.

You can imagine everyone was so elated seeing this art – that not a lot of people understand – finally getting its due. I learned from incredible casting directors like Juliet Taylor who should have won 15 Oscars already. She’s top of the top. She worked with Mike Nichols and Woody Allen, and her career spans decades. You look at so many movies on all of those lists of must-sees, and she cast them. And without her casts, they wouldn’t be what they are. People are getting their due, and it was exciting to see it.

Kirill: Do you feel that it is more interesting, exciting, challenging for you to be working on an episodic production versus working on a feature film?

Julie: I like them both, and they’re just so very different. Episodic is long-form storytelling, so you get to live in the world for such an incredibly long period of time. But within that come its own unique challenges. You do want to keep it fresh. You want to keep it interesting. You want to make sure that there’s cohesion from day one, episode one of season one, to episode eight of season 20, depending if you’re lucky enough to get that many seasons. And you want to be able to see their trajectory and the arc of it, and be able to follow it and not feel like there’s any misstep. There’s a lot more responsibility in that regard because it is such long-form.

I love the slow pace of film. You take your time. You get to think about every piece in a very specific way. And it’s finite. A lot of times with film you ultimately get your first choice, because you’re not potentially having an actor lose an opportunity later on that may be something that they’re more excited about, or the arc is different, and that’s what they’re sort of leaning in towards.

The thing that I love about “The Diplomat” in particular is because the scripts are so good and the characters are so wonderfully fleshed, we got the first choices that we wanted for each role – which is a little unheard of in the series world.

(L to R) Keri Russell as Kate Wyler, Rufus Sewell as Hal Wyler in episode 305 of “The Diplomat”. Courtesy of Netflix.

Kirill: For me as a viewer it feels that episodic productions are now more exciting, and also way more prestigious for actors. Going to your involvement with “House of Cards”, that was the first time I couldn’t believe that I saw all those big name actors on the small screen.

Julie: You’re not wrong, as that definitely set the tone. And we also hit a time where there was so much available that you didn’t know where to look, and things got lost in the sauce. Right now it’s a little leaner. There’s not as much content being filmed. You can pay attention to what’s out there, and let the storytelling do the work of it, and have those actors that you would expect on the big screen to be on those smaller screens. A lot of great writing is in television right now. – and it’s hard to get a movie made.

Kirill: Getting to “The Diplomat”, how did you find your way to it, or maybe how did it find its way to you?

Julie: I interviewed for it. I auditioned for it like actors auditioned for jobs. I read the script, and it was one of the best scripts I’ve read in such a long time. I was desperate to work on it, and I made a complete fool of myself in the meeting. I told Debora Cahn that I would quite literally gnaw off my right arm to work with her on it, and I don’t know why she found that endearing [laughs]. I think I would find it psychotic, but she hired me, and it’s been amazing ever since. I feel so lucky.

Kirill: What is the importance of the first season on a show?

Julie: It’s very important. You’re setting up the world. You are creating the universe that people are going to either love or hate – but you want them to talk about it.

Specifically in “The Diplomat”, you have these interesting characters, and you need to put those pieces together in a way that tells the story – that Debora will be able to use those actors to tell the story, hopefully two, three, four seasons later. The relationships feel authentic. The chemistry is there, and it is cohesive in the way that you need it to be cohesive.

There was a lot of discussion. It was a lot of watching tapes and collaborating with the studio and finding our way forward. I will say that in that initial stage Debora, Janice Williams the producer and I were very much aligned in what our creative vision was for this particular piece. And we’re lucky to have partners in Netflix, and they were supportive of where we wanted to go with it. Then when you went out to the actors, everybody was saying that it was the best thing I’ve read in a long time. Sounds good. Let’s do it. A lot of stars aligned for this one in a great way.

(L to R) Keri Russell as Kate Wyler, Allison Janney as Grace Penn in episode 303 of “The Diplomat”. Courtesy of Netflix.

Kirill: How much time are we talking about on the first season? Are we talking about weeks? Are we talking about months of your involvement?

Julie: Months. Generally, when you work on a new series, you get around 10 weeks total to work on that first episode, setting up that world, figuring it out. On “The Diplomat” we had a little extra time. I came on for 3-4 weeks prior to the 10 weeks of casting to figure out who Kate Wyler was. Where were we going to land on Kate Wyler? And also, who was Hal Wyler? What was that pair going to look like? That’s what we circled for 4 weeks as we were figuring out those pieces. Then we took a little break for the holidays, and then we came back in January. And 10 weeks later we had a full cast and we were ready to go.

Kirill: Who are your primary collaborators?

Julie: Showrunners and producers, and especially in the first episode the directors – and also your studio network. Netflix was a really big collaborator as well. What I love about Netflix is that they are so supportive of their creatives. They’re hiring you because they trust you, and they trust your story and your vision. But it is their platform, so it was important for them to be behind it as well.

Kirill: Do you want to hire exceptional individuals or do you want to hire an exceptional ensemble?

Julie: That’s a good question because it’s so specific to each project? I want both. I want all the stars to align and I want everything. It depends on the project. It depends on the team and how much you are all creatively aligned. It happened perfectly on “The Diplomat”. It doesn’t happen on every project that you work on, but for the most part, I’m really proud of the work that I’ve done throughout my career, and there are elements of everything that resonate well.

Kirill: What are your thoughts on typecasting? Sometimes I see an actor, and I say “this guy always plays the bad guys”. Or “this lady always plays the romantic interest”. How difficult is it for you to handle this when you are looking for people to fill particular roles?

Julie: I try really hard not to typecast. What actor wants to play the same role over and over and over and over again? Maybe a couple?

In general, actors do like to stretch, at least the actors that I work with. If you look at my body of work, most of the stuff that I do is character-driven fleshed-out characters. It’s quite rare that I get to do anything that doesn’t have that element to it. So when you have something that is so character-driven, you’re working with actors that are exceptionally skilled in the art of acting. And those actors don’t necessarily want to do the same things over and over. They want to have a diversified career. Because of that I can trust them to work in different places.

I’ve cast Rufus Sewell twice now – in “Kaleidoscope” and then in “The Diplomat”. And what he does in both is very different. He’s so capable, as you can see him in all of these other things that he does where they’re all so interesting. It depends on the role. It depends on the actor. Also in “The Diplomat” you have Rory Kinnear who’s playing the prime minister, and he also played a prime minister in “Black Mirror” in its very first episode.

Kirill: That one was quite difficult to watch.

Julie: Indeed, and it set the tone for that entire series. Going back to it, it’s two very different prime ministers. One part of the conversation with Rory around this question – does he want to do a prime minister again? When you read the material, and you see what’s in front of you, and how it shapes, you couldn’t say no to it, because it was so different. You weren’t going to have those parallels. That’s also part of the conversation – trying not to repeat, because everybody wants something different, everyone wants something unique, and everyone wants something interesting.

It’s the same for Allison Janney and In the same way that we have Allison Janney and Bradley Whitford. Everyone was talking about C.J. and “The West Wing”, but what they’re doing here is so different from what they were doing there. But there is excitement about the idea that you’re getting to have that pairing again.

There’s a lot of different elements to it, but we try really hard not to typecast, if we can.

(L to R) Allison Janney as Grace Penn, Bradley Whitford as Todd Penn in episode 306 of “The Diplomat”. Courtesy of Netflix.

Kirill: Is there such a thing as your favorite season on the show, or are they all your babies, so to speak?

Julie: They’re all my babies. But I will say, this is one of those unique shows that I think gets better and better each season. It’s such a rare thing. I loved the first season. And then the second season came out, and it was fantastic. And then the third season came out, and as I was reading the scripts, I couldn’t believe that it’s gotten even better. And now wait till the fourth season, because the fourth season is pretty awesome. It’s so exciting, because it’s getting better and better as it goes.

Kirill: How different is your job today from 20 years ago?

Julie: Very much so. Twenty years ago I was taking VHS tapes, and putting them in two different machines, and trying to record things, and then FedEx’ing them to people in Los Angeles, because all of the creatives lived in Los Angeles at the time. And if you didn’t catch the deadline for FedEx, they wouldn’t get the tape, and your people wouldn’t get cast, and it was terrible.

I don’t think the creative conversations have changed, but the technology has certainly shifted in a way that allows for faster consideration of things, and for actors to have the ability to be wherever they are, whenever they want to be, and still be considered and not lose out on opportunities.

Kirill: I’m not sure how scientifically accurate it is, but I’ve heard a number of times that an average person can hold about 500 names in their memory. How many names do you hold in your head?

Julie: I feel like I have way more than 500. It’s my specialized skill. I don’t know if I could give you an actual count, but if that’s the average, I will exceed the average. That’s my job. I have to remember names. I have to remember faces. I have to remember performances. To be fair though, that also means that I forget a lot of my daily life, because my brain is fully consumed by my job.

Kirill: Do you keep track of everybody’s whereabouts and schedules?

Julie: Yes and no. I read the trades every day, because that gives you an idea of what actors are doing, who’s active, where they are. If I’m working on an international project, I make it a point of knowing where everybody is in that particular market. But I can’t say that I keep up to date with the availability of actors in different parts of the world, unless I’m working on something in those markets. I can always call agents and actors and managers and check their availability if I’m unsure about something.

Kirill: Generative AI is on everybody’s mind lately. How do you see it today for your specific part of the industry and for the industry in general?

Julie: It’s really hard for AI to replace human emotion and human conversation. I know there are going to be certain industries that will be hit hard with it. Right now, I don’t see how casting can be affected by it – unless they want to take the human element out of things.

The reason you hire casting directors is not only for their taste and for their eye, but for their depth of knowledge, and their ability to marry actors with the right roles in a way that the creatives are going to be able to tell the stories that they want to tell. AI can spit out a bunch of names, but they’re not going to tell you why that one is the right role. They’re not going to advocate for that person to get that role.

Going back to “House of Cards”, Rachel Brosnahan was hired for that role that ended up expanding. You put that in AI, it’ll spit out a bunch of names, but it won’t be able to tell you why Rachel was the one that we should have hired. That was me. That was the conversations that I had with the creatives, and the explanation and the body of work and auditions that she put in and all of that work to get her that job.

She’s incredibly talented, and she’d have an amazing career even without that job. But that job gave her the stepping stone to be able to do what she does now – to be in “Superman”, to do “Marvelous Mrs. Maisel”, to do everything that she does, all the advocacy work. It was because someone advocated for her and was passionate about her. That’s what we’re seeing as cast writers do in all aspects of their work, and AI can’t do that. Maybe I’m being optimistic, but that’s what I’m hoping for.

Rory Kinnear as Nicol Trowbridge in episode 102 of “The Diplomat”. Courtesy of Netflix.

Kirill: What do you feel is the secret or the key ingredients to longevity in your part of this industry?

Julie: You really have to have attention to detail. You have to have a real love of actors and knowledge of capability. You have to show up. You have to stand behind your word. And you have to be consistent.

There’s going to be ups and downs in every industry. We’re going to have strikes. There’s going to be an abundance of work, and then there’s going to be a dearth of work. You’re going to have to roll with the punches, and find ways to stay creative, and not burn out and not flame out. Also, it’s helpful to have hobbies outside of this business. This should not be your end-all be-all, the only thing that you have to love.

Kirill: If you had a time machine and you could go back 20 years or so, and give your younger self a piece of advice, what would that be?

Julie: I would say don’t stress out so much. I was a very anxious, very intense person who desperately wanted to prove themselves, and I was always afraid that I wasn’t doing enough. That drive was important to get me where I am today, but it would have been a lot more fun had I just chilled out a little bit.

Kirill: You mentioned that your job took you all over the world. If you had to choose one dish that is your favorite from anywhere in the world, what would it be?

Julie: There was one, around 20 years ago, and I still dream of this dish in San Gimignano in Italy. It was a combination of Italian and Austrian, and it was the best dish I’ve ever had in my entire life. And I can’t find a recipe for it, and it breaks my heart. The fact that I still dream about this dish after 20 years is ridiculous, and I have no idea how to recreate it. It was a fusion, it was savory, there was a pasta element to it, and I would love for you to figure it out and send it to me.

(L to R) Keri Russell as Kate Wyler, Ato Essandoh as Stuart Heyford in episode 103 of “The Diplomat”. Courtesy of Netflix.

And here I want to thank Julie Schubert for taking the time to talk with me about the art and craft of casting. I also want to thank Kristy Chan for making this interview happen. The first three seasons of “The Diplomat” are streaming now on Netflix. Finally, if you want to know more about how films and TV shows are made, click here for additional in-depth interviews in this series.